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	<title>Comments on: Comparing natural gas vs electric heating</title>
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	<description>Climate change is real. You're causing it. You can stop it. Will you try?</description>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.iwilltry.org/b/projects/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/comment-page-2/#comment-8972</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jan 2012 01:15:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iwilltry.org/b/experiments/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/#comment-8972</guid>
		<description>Bruce,
If you want to do annualized energy storage with a 15 m^3 storage tank you had better be starting with a very well insulated and sealed home. You cannot expect to achieve this just by spending $15000 to add a storage tank and collectors to an existing home. Some simple high school physics shows why:

Water has a specific heat capacity of about 4 kJ per litre per degree C. 15 m^3 is 15000 litres. Thus the heat capacity of a 15 m^3 storage tank is 4*15000 = 60000 kJ per degree C, or in more useful units, about 17 kWh per degree C. Lets be optimistic and assume you are able to heat this tank up to 90 degrees C during the summer. Let&#039;s also assume the tank is perfectly insulated so no heat escapes until you want to release it into your home. Thus you have about 70 degrees C of useful temperature drop with which to heat your home (after that the water drops to room temperature of about 20 degrees C it cannot be used to heat your home). So the total energy available is 70 degrees C * 17 kWh per degree C = about 1190 kWh. My heating requirement for December and January alone is about 4,600 kWh. Thus a 15 m^3 storage tank might heat my home for a few weeks at best. This is assuming no additional solar input during those weeks but that is what &quot;annualized&quot; storage is all about. It&#039;s also the stark reality in Vancouver where a sunny day in winter is a rare exception.

Incidentally, even if your home were insulated and sealed well enough that 1190 kWh of annualized heat storage could get you through the winter, that is only about $85 worth of electricity at current BC hydro rates. A savings of $85/year is not much pay back for a $15,000 investment. You&#039;d be much better off putting your money in the bank and using the interest to pay your electric bill.

I&#039;m not disputing that there may be a positive return on investment in solar heating solutions, but where there is, it most likely does not result from &quot;annualized storage&quot; but from continual collection, storage and release of solar energy, year round.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruce,<br />
If you want to do annualized energy storage with a 15 m^3 storage tank you had better be starting with a very well insulated and sealed home. You cannot expect to achieve this just by spending $15000 to add a storage tank and collectors to an existing home. Some simple high school physics shows why:</p>
<p>Water has a specific heat capacity of about 4 kJ per litre per degree C. 15 m^3 is 15000 litres. Thus the heat capacity of a 15 m^3 storage tank is 4*15000 = 60000 kJ per degree C, or in more useful units, about 17 kWh per degree C. Lets be optimistic and assume you are able to heat this tank up to 90 degrees C during the summer. Let&#8217;s also assume the tank is perfectly insulated so no heat escapes until you want to release it into your home. Thus you have about 70 degrees C of useful temperature drop with which to heat your home (after that the water drops to room temperature of about 20 degrees C it cannot be used to heat your home). So the total energy available is 70 degrees C * 17 kWh per degree C = about 1190 kWh. My heating requirement for December and January alone is about 4,600 kWh. Thus a 15 m^3 storage tank might heat my home for a few weeks at best. This is assuming no additional solar input during those weeks but that is what &#8220;annualized&#8221; storage is all about. It&#8217;s also the stark reality in Vancouver where a sunny day in winter is a rare exception.</p>
<p>Incidentally, even if your home were insulated and sealed well enough that 1190 kWh of annualized heat storage could get you through the winter, that is only about $85 worth of electricity at current BC hydro rates. A savings of $85/year is not much pay back for a $15,000 investment. You&#8217;d be much better off putting your money in the bank and using the interest to pay your electric bill.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not disputing that there may be a positive return on investment in solar heating solutions, but where there is, it most likely does not result from &#8220;annualized storage&#8221; but from continual collection, storage and release of solar energy, year round.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.iwilltry.org/b/projects/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/comment-page-2/#comment-8970</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jan 2012 21:08:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iwilltry.org/b/experiments/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/#comment-8970</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m still quite happy with the results. Even at today&#039;s prices, there is a cost savings for me to heat with electric space heaters instead of my old natural gas furnace. My utility bills reflect that. They may be higher than when I first switched to electric but they are still lower than before I switched to electric. Furthermore, I have estimated the capital cost and likely annual savings from alternatives like high efficiency gas or electric heat pumps and based on my energy needs, the time till payback for such systems would exceed the likely lifetime of the systems. I&#039;ll re-evaluate from time to time, but for now I&#039;m confident that sticking with electric space heating is the most cost effective solution for me. Other people&#039;s energy needs and opportunity cost may vary so these results don&#039;t necessarily hold true for everyone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m still quite happy with the results. Even at today&#8217;s prices, there is a cost savings for me to heat with electric space heaters instead of my old natural gas furnace. My utility bills reflect that. They may be higher than when I first switched to electric but they are still lower than before I switched to electric. Furthermore, I have estimated the capital cost and likely annual savings from alternatives like high efficiency gas or electric heat pumps and based on my energy needs, the time till payback for such systems would exceed the likely lifetime of the systems. I&#8217;ll re-evaluate from time to time, but for now I&#8217;m confident that sticking with electric space heating is the most cost effective solution for me. Other people&#8217;s energy needs and opportunity cost may vary so these results don&#8217;t necessarily hold true for everyone.</p>
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		<title>By: بهراد</title>
		<link>http://www.iwilltry.org/b/projects/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/comment-page-2/#comment-8948</link>
		<dc:creator>بهراد</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jan 2012 04:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iwilltry.org/b/experiments/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/#comment-8948</guid>
		<description>Hi, are you still happy with the project result considering that Elec price has gone up and Gas down compared to 2 years ago?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, are you still happy with the project result considering that Elec price has gone up and Gas down compared to 2 years ago?</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce</title>
		<link>http://www.iwilltry.org/b/projects/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/comment-page-2/#comment-8934</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jan 2012 00:06:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iwilltry.org/b/experiments/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/#comment-8934</guid>
		<description>Solar water heating systems have been proven in Passivhaus, but recently become on par with comparable BC residential heating systems, especially in high efficiency new construction. It works by utilizing the surplus summer heat and storing it in an insulated container below the slab floor, then circulating that heat through radiant floor pipes. 

The capital cost of 12 solar collectors (24m2) and a seasonal solar storage underground tank (15m3) is under  $15,000. in Vancouver - to provide nearly all the domestic hot water for showers and cleaning, plus the radiant floor space heating. Once installed, the system is maintenance free for decades, plus the solar heat is clean and renewable.

I think once people know that the asymetrical solar supply/heat demand problem has been solved with annualized storage, and that it is reasonably cheap, it should become very popular in Canada, like it is in Austria.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Solar water heating systems have been proven in Passivhaus, but recently become on par with comparable BC residential heating systems, especially in high efficiency new construction. It works by utilizing the surplus summer heat and storing it in an insulated container below the slab floor, then circulating that heat through radiant floor pipes. </p>
<p>The capital cost of 12 solar collectors (24m2) and a seasonal solar storage underground tank (15m3) is under  $15,000. in Vancouver &#8211; to provide nearly all the domestic hot water for showers and cleaning, plus the radiant floor space heating. Once installed, the system is maintenance free for decades, plus the solar heat is clean and renewable.</p>
<p>I think once people know that the asymetrical solar supply/heat demand problem has been solved with annualized storage, and that it is reasonably cheap, it should become very popular in Canada, like it is in Austria.</p>
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		<title>By: Boštjan</title>
		<link>http://www.iwilltry.org/b/projects/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/comment-page-2/#comment-8871</link>
		<dc:creator>Boštjan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2011 10:37:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iwilltry.org/b/experiments/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/#comment-8871</guid>
		<description>It certanly is arguable, allthrough I think hydro is better for the enviroment. But I think we shouldn&#039;t &quot;waste&quot; electricity as such complex energy form of energy to heat our homes, because we can&#039;t power engines or computers with natural gas and therefore we have to convert it to electrcity with poor eficiency. 

We would have consumed less fossil fules, if everybody used gas to heat their houses with, let&#039;s say, 90% efficient gas furnance and used all electricity from renewable resources for industry and comunications. What we do now, look something like this: we consume all renewable electricity for heating and burn gas with 35% efficiency to generate electricity to power industry.

You&#039;re still lucky in Canada, because gas is generally cheaper than electricity, if you have 90% efficient furnance, and it&#039;s nothing unusal to have such &quot;high&quot; efficiency - condensing boilers have efficiency arround 100%. Here in Slovenia, gas is so expensive that it&#039;s cheaper to heat with coal generated electricity, even if you have 100% efficient oven, and heating oil is even more expensive, so that you can heat with electricity day-round (through low and high tariff) and you still save money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It certanly is arguable, allthrough I think hydro is better for the enviroment. But I think we shouldn&#8217;t &#8220;waste&#8221; electricity as such complex energy form of energy to heat our homes, because we can&#8217;t power engines or computers with natural gas and therefore we have to convert it to electrcity with poor eficiency. </p>
<p>We would have consumed less fossil fules, if everybody used gas to heat their houses with, let&#8217;s say, 90% efficient gas furnance and used all electricity from renewable resources for industry and comunications. What we do now, look something like this: we consume all renewable electricity for heating and burn gas with 35% efficiency to generate electricity to power industry.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re still lucky in Canada, because gas is generally cheaper than electricity, if you have 90% efficient furnance, and it&#8217;s nothing unusal to have such &#8220;high&#8221; efficiency &#8211; condensing boilers have efficiency arround 100%. Here in Slovenia, gas is so expensive that it&#8217;s cheaper to heat with coal generated electricity, even if you have 100% efficient oven, and heating oil is even more expensive, so that you can heat with electricity day-round (through low and high tariff) and you still save money.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.iwilltry.org/b/projects/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/comment-page-2/#comment-8847</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Dec 2011 08:22:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iwilltry.org/b/experiments/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/#comment-8847</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s arguable whether gas or hydro is worse for the environment. There are so many indirect effects to be taken into account. However, what isn&#039;t arguable is that consuming less of either IS good for the environment. I agree 100% that heat pumps are the way to go. As well as improving insulation and weatherproofing (a dollar spent there will usually pay back quickly in reduced energy consumption).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s arguable whether gas or hydro is worse for the environment. There are so many indirect effects to be taken into account. However, what isn&#8217;t arguable is that consuming less of either IS good for the environment. I agree 100% that heat pumps are the way to go. As well as improving insulation and weatherproofing (a dollar spent there will usually pay back quickly in reduced energy consumption).</p>
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		<title>By: Boštjan</title>
		<link>http://www.iwilltry.org/b/projects/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/comment-page-2/#comment-8573</link>
		<dc:creator>Boštjan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:14:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iwilltry.org/b/experiments/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/#comment-8573</guid>
		<description>Allthrough BC may have surplus capacity, the rest of Canada doesn&#039;t, and has to rely on nuclear and thermal powerplants instead of transporting clean hydro power through powerlines... therefore I don&#039;t think it is enviromentally friendly to heat with electricity. At least not directly, without heat pump.

For comparrison, electricity in our country costs 0.08€/kWh (0.11CAD) at low tariff (22:00 - 6:00) and 0.16€ (0,22CAD) throught the day. You are really lucky to have such low energy prices!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Allthrough BC may have surplus capacity, the rest of Canada doesn&#8217;t, and has to rely on nuclear and thermal powerplants instead of transporting clean hydro power through powerlines&#8230; therefore I don&#8217;t think it is enviromentally friendly to heat with electricity. At least not directly, without heat pump.</p>
<p>For comparrison, electricity in our country costs 0.08€/kWh (0.11CAD) at low tariff (22:00 &#8211; 6:00) and 0.16€ (0,22CAD) throught the day. You are really lucky to have such low energy prices!</p>
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		<title>By: Rick</title>
		<link>http://www.iwilltry.org/b/projects/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/comment-page-2/#comment-8369</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Oct 2011 19:23:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iwilltry.org/b/experiments/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/#comment-8369</guid>
		<description>I am going to try oil filled radiaters this Winter. Live in NW Illinois and am SOOOOO tired of the natural gas bills!!! Excellent website!!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am going to try oil filled radiaters this Winter. Live in NW Illinois and am SOOOOO tired of the natural gas bills!!! Excellent website!!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://www.iwilltry.org/b/projects/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/comment-page-2/#comment-7447</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Aug 2011 01:57:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iwilltry.org/b/experiments/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/#comment-7447</guid>
		<description>Best discussion I&#039;ve heard.  Thanks.
I was faced with an $11/month gas fee regardless of use plus the cost of a new furnace and duct work estimated at $5000+.  I&#039;ll go with electric baseboard heat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Best discussion I&#8217;ve heard.  Thanks.<br />
I was faced with an $11/month gas fee regardless of use plus the cost of a new furnace and duct work estimated at $5000+.  I&#8217;ll go with electric baseboard heat.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.iwilltry.org/b/projects/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/comment-page-2/#comment-7007</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jun 2011 21:25:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iwilltry.org/b/experiments/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/#comment-7007</guid>
		<description>Hi dgl,
Three years later I can definitely say my heating costs with electric space heating are less than they would have been using natural gas with my old furnace. My operating costs would likely be even lower if I installed a high efficiency gas furnace, but it would be several years for the capital investment to pay back (while the capital investment on portable electric space heating paid back in the first year). If/when I choose to make a bigger capital investment, it will more likely be in a ground source heat pump and radiant floor heating (fortunately the layout of my home with a 3ft crawlspace under the main floor makes this relatively easy to install), but in the meantime I will stick with electric space heating and continuing to improve insulation and sealing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi dgl,<br />
Three years later I can definitely say my heating costs with electric space heating are less than they would have been using natural gas with my old furnace. My operating costs would likely be even lower if I installed a high efficiency gas furnace, but it would be several years for the capital investment to pay back (while the capital investment on portable electric space heating paid back in the first year). If/when I choose to make a bigger capital investment, it will more likely be in a ground source heat pump and radiant floor heating (fortunately the layout of my home with a 3ft crawlspace under the main floor makes this relatively easy to install), but in the meantime I will stick with electric space heating and continuing to improve insulation and sealing.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.iwilltry.org/b/projects/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/comment-page-2/#comment-7006</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jun 2011 21:14:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iwilltry.org/b/experiments/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/#comment-7006</guid>
		<description>Hi Tracy,
Without knowing exactly what kind of fireplace you have I can&#039;t say for certain, but I suspect you would probably end up paying more to heat with your gas fireplace instead of your electric baseboard heaters. Fireplaces are typically very inefficient at heating a home since most of the heat simply goes up the chimney. Some older models will actually have a negative effect. They heat the room they are in but they end up cooling down other rooms due to air infiltration to replace the air drawn up the chimney. If your fireplace draws inside air to support combustion, it&#039;s a good bet it&#039;s not going to be very efficient. Usually, gas fireplaces are designed to look pretty... not to heat your home. Also, if you do not already have a gas account, getting one will likely cost you around $140/year just for the subscription fee, no matter how little gas you consume. Good luck.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Tracy,<br />
Without knowing exactly what kind of fireplace you have I can&#8217;t say for certain, but I suspect you would probably end up paying more to heat with your gas fireplace instead of your electric baseboard heaters. Fireplaces are typically very inefficient at heating a home since most of the heat simply goes up the chimney. Some older models will actually have a negative effect. They heat the room they are in but they end up cooling down other rooms due to air infiltration to replace the air drawn up the chimney. If your fireplace draws inside air to support combustion, it&#8217;s a good bet it&#8217;s not going to be very efficient. Usually, gas fireplaces are designed to look pretty&#8230; not to heat your home. Also, if you do not already have a gas account, getting one will likely cost you around $140/year just for the subscription fee, no matter how little gas you consume. Good luck.</p>
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		<title>By: Tracy</title>
		<link>http://www.iwilltry.org/b/projects/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/comment-page-2/#comment-6941</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jun 2011 19:46:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iwilltry.org/b/experiments/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/#comment-6941</guid>
		<description>Hi Rob and all,

This is exactly the information and discussion I have been looking for. Any feed back on my situation would be helpful.  I live south of Seattle but figure our fuel cost and winter temperatures are similar enough. We have been heating our 1944 800 sq feet. (74 sq meters) home with electric baseboards (2) and one wall fan heater.  Most of the time it is only the main living baseboard heater is heating our home. The other two only heat the bedrooms when needed (turned up 20 min before retiring).  Recently we have started to look into heating our the main areas home with a gas fireplace instead of the baseboard heat. The hope is to reduce our heating cost and make use of the empty and useless fireplace.

Any feedback is appreciated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Rob and all,</p>
<p>This is exactly the information and discussion I have been looking for. Any feed back on my situation would be helpful.  I live south of Seattle but figure our fuel cost and winter temperatures are similar enough. We have been heating our 1944 800 sq feet. (74 sq meters) home with electric baseboards (2) and one wall fan heater.  Most of the time it is only the main living baseboard heater is heating our home. The other two only heat the bedrooms when needed (turned up 20 min before retiring).  Recently we have started to look into heating our the main areas home with a gas fireplace instead of the baseboard heat. The hope is to reduce our heating cost and make use of the empty and useless fireplace.</p>
<p>Any feedback is appreciated.</p>
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		<title>By: dgl</title>
		<link>http://www.iwilltry.org/b/projects/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/comment-page-2/#comment-6894</link>
		<dc:creator>dgl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jun 2011 21:38:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iwilltry.org/b/experiments/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/#comment-6894</guid>
		<description>Hi Rob, Thanks for this excellent analysis. Now three years later has there been any major change to this analysis? Would you still be happy to switch to electricity? I face a slightly different challenge. Currently the ducting takes up much needed headroom in a low ceiling basement. I can rearrange to fix this somewhat, but also furnace and surrounds takes up a good chunk of useful floor space - would be nice to claim this back too. Basement is unfinished so no problem to pull wires to all the rooms. If electric still more efficient, and still a preferred green option then it is pretty much a triple win (third is more space) to get the service upgrade and go electric, versus buying a new high efficiency furnace which I&#039;ll need in the near future. The only issue I can see is  I&#039;d be removing the ducting and therefore removing the possibility of easily going with a heat pump in the future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Rob, Thanks for this excellent analysis. Now three years later has there been any major change to this analysis? Would you still be happy to switch to electricity? I face a slightly different challenge. Currently the ducting takes up much needed headroom in a low ceiling basement. I can rearrange to fix this somewhat, but also furnace and surrounds takes up a good chunk of useful floor space &#8211; would be nice to claim this back too. Basement is unfinished so no problem to pull wires to all the rooms. If electric still more efficient, and still a preferred green option then it is pretty much a triple win (third is more space) to get the service upgrade and go electric, versus buying a new high efficiency furnace which I&#8217;ll need in the near future. The only issue I can see is  I&#8217;d be removing the ducting and therefore removing the possibility of easily going with a heat pump in the future.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.iwilltry.org/b/projects/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/comment-page-2/#comment-6677</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 May 2011 05:43:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iwilltry.org/b/experiments/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/#comment-6677</guid>
		<description>Hi Reza,
Thanks for the comment and for your support. I received the same annoying letter from Fortis. Like you, I&#039;ll be happy if they remove my gas meter. I have no use for it. I&#039;ll continue to put my money where it pays back the most (increasing insulation and weatherproofing) while using space heaters and considering other options like a ground source electric heat pump. I don&#039;t know if you have tried it but for anyone willing to tolerate 15 degrees C or lower room temperature during the winder I highly recommend an &lt;a href=&quot;http://shop.ebay.ca/i.html?_nkw=heated+mattress+pad&amp;_armrs=1&amp;_dmd=2&amp;_from=&amp;_ipg=&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;electric mattress pad&lt;/a&gt;. Turn it on 30 minutes before you go to sleep and getting into bed will be a divine experience (the colder your house, the more divine the experience), and the electrical cost is nothing compared to heating your entire home. It is a wonder to me that all beds are not thermostatically controlled by default. It is such a simple solution to put the heat where it will be most useful (at the point of contact with people) instead of where it will be least useful (under windows, usually)... but I guess the average person wants their home to be the same temperature everywhere, regardless of cost or environmental impact.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Reza,<br />
Thanks for the comment and for your support. I received the same annoying letter from Fortis. Like you, I&#8217;ll be happy if they remove my gas meter. I have no use for it. I&#8217;ll continue to put my money where it pays back the most (increasing insulation and weatherproofing) while using space heaters and considering other options like a ground source electric heat pump. I don&#8217;t know if you have tried it but for anyone willing to tolerate 15 degrees C or lower room temperature during the winder I highly recommend an <a href="http://shop.ebay.ca/i.html?_nkw=heated+mattress+pad&#038;_armrs=1&#038;_dmd=2&#038;_from=&#038;_ipg=" rel="nofollow">electric mattress pad</a>. Turn it on 30 minutes before you go to sleep and getting into bed will be a divine experience (the colder your house, the more divine the experience), and the electrical cost is nothing compared to heating your entire home. It is a wonder to me that all beds are not thermostatically controlled by default. It is such a simple solution to put the heat where it will be most useful (at the point of contact with people) instead of where it will be least useful (under windows, usually)&#8230; but I guess the average person wants their home to be the same temperature everywhere, regardless of cost or environmental impact.</p>
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		<title>By: Reza Nezami</title>
		<link>http://www.iwilltry.org/b/projects/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/comment-page-2/#comment-6655</link>
		<dc:creator>Reza Nezami</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Apr 2011 07:12:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iwilltry.org/b/experiments/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/#comment-6655</guid>
		<description>Excellet site and wanderful comments from all. We do need this type of info much more. I have been doing these recommendations since first I bought my old house here in Vancouver 3 years ago. It&#039;s a 60 year old cottage style one story house and I basically paid for the land. I first double glazed the old wood windows with 1/16&quot; clear plastic glass sheets, resurfaced the floor with used but nice wood floor with good underlay and do use a dehumidifier since beginning. I totally disconnected myself from gas company and pay average 50$ a month for my electricity which is used for everything. I have slowly reduced the temperature inside from 20 to 18 and this year to less than 15 degrees all winter. I use only one small electric heater which is one of those with fake fire display and more importantly it is a mobile one. So we, My wife and I, actually move it when it is needed, though most of the time it is located in the living room. To reduce the consumption we do turn it off during sleep and during day when we are at work. So it is basically used a few hours of evening when we are home. That means inside temperature fluctuates between 16 to 12 during night when temperatur falls. But it really doesnt&#039; bother us and actually feels great to snug in. One trick we use, which we have learned from our cultural background in middle east is to use a large bed spread to put on top of the heater and sit around it by using it to keep our lower body actually it sometimes even hoter than we can handle:) This is a great trick, because the heating area has been step-wised in the sense that where we are sitting it is above 20 degrees, and as you get farther in the living room it gradients out to 15.
As a side note, I just received a letter from Fortis BC, the new owner of Terason Gas, that they are basically threatening, politely of couse, to disconnect my gas meter if I don&#039;t activate it again! Of course in the name of safety!! These sleezy business practices really is outrages. What had from very beginning turned me off on gas is the running fees they would charge you for just previlage of having the option of using it! And consider that gas price has been kept depressed in the market as long as I remember, but not for the consumer. So, no, thanks you. I prefer to pay my hard earned money to BC hydro, at least it is not polluting the environment as much.
Thanks and keep up the good site.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellet site and wanderful comments from all. We do need this type of info much more. I have been doing these recommendations since first I bought my old house here in Vancouver 3 years ago. It&#8217;s a 60 year old cottage style one story house and I basically paid for the land. I first double glazed the old wood windows with 1/16&#8243; clear plastic glass sheets, resurfaced the floor with used but nice wood floor with good underlay and do use a dehumidifier since beginning. I totally disconnected myself from gas company and pay average 50$ a month for my electricity which is used for everything. I have slowly reduced the temperature inside from 20 to 18 and this year to less than 15 degrees all winter. I use only one small electric heater which is one of those with fake fire display and more importantly it is a mobile one. So we, My wife and I, actually move it when it is needed, though most of the time it is located in the living room. To reduce the consumption we do turn it off during sleep and during day when we are at work. So it is basically used a few hours of evening when we are home. That means inside temperature fluctuates between 16 to 12 during night when temperatur falls. But it really doesnt&#8217; bother us and actually feels great to snug in. One trick we use, which we have learned from our cultural background in middle east is to use a large bed spread to put on top of the heater and sit around it by using it to keep our lower body actually it sometimes even hoter than we can handle:) This is a great trick, because the heating area has been step-wised in the sense that where we are sitting it is above 20 degrees, and as you get farther in the living room it gradients out to 15.<br />
As a side note, I just received a letter from Fortis BC, the new owner of Terason Gas, that they are basically threatening, politely of couse, to disconnect my gas meter if I don&#8217;t activate it again! Of course in the name of safety!! These sleezy business practices really is outrages. What had from very beginning turned me off on gas is the running fees they would charge you for just previlage of having the option of using it! And consider that gas price has been kept depressed in the market as long as I remember, but not for the consumer. So, no, thanks you. I prefer to pay my hard earned money to BC hydro, at least it is not polluting the environment as much.<br />
Thanks and keep up the good site.</p>
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		<title>By: F. Durzo</title>
		<link>http://www.iwilltry.org/b/projects/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/comment-page-2/#comment-6562</link>
		<dc:creator>F. Durzo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Mar 2011 17:08:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iwilltry.org/b/experiments/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/#comment-6562</guid>
		<description>to clarify my last comment,  $ 0.00 were spent on the electric heating system. My $ 300.00/ year estimate excludes the purchase of a new gas boiler for the old part which was $5500.00 with removal of the old cast boiler, new maniflod, new chimney liner and, gas line Internal only and outside  air pipe for cleaner combustion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>to clarify my last comment,  $ 0.00 were spent on the electric heating system. My $ 300.00/ year estimate excludes the purchase of a new gas boiler for the old part which was $5500.00 with removal of the old cast boiler, new maniflod, new chimney liner and, gas line Internal only and outside  air pipe for cleaner combustion.</p>
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		<title>By: F. Durzo</title>
		<link>http://www.iwilltry.org/b/projects/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/comment-page-2/#comment-6561</link>
		<dc:creator>F. Durzo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Mar 2011 15:03:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iwilltry.org/b/experiments/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/#comment-6561</guid>
		<description>Hello,
I agree with your conclution.
I have not read all the comments so I hope I won&#039;t be ripeating what someone else wrote.
My 1945 house has a 25 year old large addition, 1100 sq. ft old and 2200 sq. ft are newer.
Twentyfive years ago I opted for electric heating in the addition because of costs, I did the wiring myself installing a thermostat in every room always dropping the thermo setting to 15C when not using a room, two rooms are constantly  set at 15 C. as  I use them on sunny days only, my house is super insulated so that on sunny days the room tempwill reach 25 C. or more.
 In 25 years I have spent $ 0.00 on repears or maintainance. Estimating $300/ yr times 25 is $ 7500.
F. D.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello,<br />
I agree with your conclution.<br />
I have not read all the comments so I hope I won&#8217;t be ripeating what someone else wrote.<br />
My 1945 house has a 25 year old large addition, 1100 sq. ft old and 2200 sq. ft are newer.<br />
Twentyfive years ago I opted for electric heating in the addition because of costs, I did the wiring myself installing a thermostat in every room always dropping the thermo setting to 15C when not using a room, two rooms are constantly  set at 15 C. as  I use them on sunny days only, my house is super insulated so that on sunny days the room tempwill reach 25 C. or more.<br />
 In 25 years I have spent $ 0.00 on repears or maintainance. Estimating $300/ yr times 25 is $ 7500.<br />
F. D.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://www.iwilltry.org/b/projects/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/comment-page-1/#comment-6547</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Mar 2011 06:53:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iwilltry.org/b/experiments/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/#comment-6547</guid>
		<description>An interesting additional thought:

Incadescant light bulbs are considered inefficient. This is because there is so much heat generated by them. If your using electricity to heat your house anyways then all your &quot;inefficient&quot;electronics and lights become almost 100% efficient because any heat they put out takes load off of your electric heater. So by going the CFL Route, which contain mercury, your not doing anybody any favours. You said you live in BC. Our power is hydroelectric so there is even no CO2 released by combustion</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An interesting additional thought:</p>
<p>Incadescant light bulbs are considered inefficient. This is because there is so much heat generated by them. If your using electricity to heat your house anyways then all your &#8220;inefficient&#8221;electronics and lights become almost 100% efficient because any heat they put out takes load off of your electric heater. So by going the CFL Route, which contain mercury, your not doing anybody any favours. You said you live in BC. Our power is hydroelectric so there is even no CO2 released by combustion</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Hood</title>
		<link>http://www.iwilltry.org/b/projects/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/comment-page-1/#comment-6512</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Hood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Feb 2011 05:59:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iwilltry.org/b/experiments/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/#comment-6512</guid>
		<description>Rob:

By maxed out, I only meant over the period of a year - I assumed that short-term planned fluctuations would average out.  I would not at all be surprised if they varied the hydro generation during the day for various reasons.  Do you have any references that describe BC Hydro&#039;s strategies for doing this?  I&#039;ve looked but cannot find anything.

Here are a couple of other relevant sites that you might find interesting:

BC Hydro has a graph of real-time flow data for their BC-Alberta and BC-US interties that can be found at: http://transmission.bchydro.com/transmission_system/actual_flow_data/.  The BC-US flow bounces around quite a bit so it looks like some of the demand fluctuations during the day are handled from imports (oil and gas generation would be my guess).

The Canadian Electricity Association has an informative document called Power Generation in Canada which can be found at: http://www.electricity.ca/media/pdfs/backgrounders/HandBook.pdf.  Figure 4 on page 8 shows how Ontario handles demand in terms of what order different power sources come online.  In Ontario the order is Hydro, Nuclear, Coal, Oil, Gas, Peaking Hydro.  I would really like to see similar data for BC.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob:</p>
<p>By maxed out, I only meant over the period of a year &#8211; I assumed that short-term planned fluctuations would average out.  I would not at all be surprised if they varied the hydro generation during the day for various reasons.  Do you have any references that describe BC Hydro&#8217;s strategies for doing this?  I&#8217;ve looked but cannot find anything.</p>
<p>Here are a couple of other relevant sites that you might find interesting:</p>
<p>BC Hydro has a graph of real-time flow data for their BC-Alberta and BC-US interties that can be found at: <a href="http://transmission.bchydro.com/transmission_system/actual_flow_data/" rel="nofollow">http://transmission.bchydro.com/transmission_system/actual_flow_data/</a>.  The BC-US flow bounces around quite a bit so it looks like some of the demand fluctuations during the day are handled from imports (oil and gas generation would be my guess).</p>
<p>The Canadian Electricity Association has an informative document called Power Generation in Canada which can be found at: <a href="http://www.electricity.ca/media/pdfs/backgrounders/HandBook.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.electricity.ca/media/pdfs/backgrounders/HandBook.pdf</a>.  Figure 4 on page 8 shows how Ontario handles demand in terms of what order different power sources come online.  In Ontario the order is Hydro, Nuclear, Coal, Oil, Gas, Peaking Hydro.  I would really like to see similar data for BC.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.iwilltry.org/b/projects/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/comment-page-1/#comment-6511</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Feb 2011 10:00:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iwilltry.org/b/experiments/comparing-natural-gas-vs-electric-heating/#comment-6511</guid>
		<description>Hi Kevin,
Great comment... and article. I agree with your assessment except for a couple minor points:

1. I don&#039;t believe it is true that fixed generation resources (wind, solar, hydro, nuclear) are always maxed out. BC Hydro, for example maxes out during peak demand, because they sell electricity to the US. During off-peak hours, BC Hydro basically shuts down their generators and instead buys back coal based electricity from the US. This is done because US coal fired power plants cannot adjust output fast enough to match changes in daily demand. The coal fired plants operate at a fixed output, buying hydro power from BC hydro during their peak demand and selling coal power back during off-peak hours. This is a somewhat moot point though since the net effect is the same: any additional electrical usage effectively results in more coal being burned, regardless of whether you live near a hydro plant in BC or a coal plant south of the border, and regardless of whether you consume electricity during peak hours or not.

2. For a complete analysis of carbon footprint, you must compare dollars to dollars, rather than just MWh to MWh. If you have options at your disposal that result in greater greenhouse gas emission reductions per dollar spent than installing a high efficiency gas furnace, then you may be better off installing cheap space heaters and spending the money you save on other carbon offset strategies. For example, removing my inefficient gas furnace and installing cheap space heaters saved me a significant amount of money which I chose to spend on additional insulation and other strategies for reducing my own energy consumption. I suspect the net effect has been a greater return (both in reduced carbon emissions and dollars saved) than if I had installed a high efficiency gas furnace.

I agree with the conclusion of your article... when it comes to reducing carbon emissions, it&#039;s really all about the negawatts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Kevin,<br />
Great comment&#8230; and article. I agree with your assessment except for a couple minor points:</p>
<p>1. I don&#8217;t believe it is true that fixed generation resources (wind, solar, hydro, nuclear) are always maxed out. BC Hydro, for example maxes out during peak demand, because they sell electricity to the US. During off-peak hours, BC Hydro basically shuts down their generators and instead buys back coal based electricity from the US. This is done because US coal fired power plants cannot adjust output fast enough to match changes in daily demand. The coal fired plants operate at a fixed output, buying hydro power from BC hydro during their peak demand and selling coal power back during off-peak hours. This is a somewhat moot point though since the net effect is the same: any additional electrical usage effectively results in more coal being burned, regardless of whether you live near a hydro plant in BC or a coal plant south of the border, and regardless of whether you consume electricity during peak hours or not.</p>
<p>2. For a complete analysis of carbon footprint, you must compare dollars to dollars, rather than just MWh to MWh. If you have options at your disposal that result in greater greenhouse gas emission reductions per dollar spent than installing a high efficiency gas furnace, then you may be better off installing cheap space heaters and spending the money you save on other carbon offset strategies. For example, removing my inefficient gas furnace and installing cheap space heaters saved me a significant amount of money which I chose to spend on additional insulation and other strategies for reducing my own energy consumption. I suspect the net effect has been a greater return (both in reduced carbon emissions and dollars saved) than if I had installed a high efficiency gas furnace.</p>
<p>I agree with the conclusion of your article&#8230; when it comes to reducing carbon emissions, it&#8217;s really all about the negawatts.</p>
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